JOHN BARNES JOHNNY & BEANIE S KITCHEN ***

Transcription

1 John Barnes 1 JOHN BARNES JOHNNY & BEANIE S KITCHEN *** Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Johnny & Beanie s Kitchen, Hastings, FL Interviewer: Anna Hamilton Transcription: Shelley Chance, Pro Docs Length: 44:02 Project: Datil Peppers of St. Augustine

2 John Barnes 2 [Begin John Barnes] Anna Hamilton: This is Anna Hamilton with the Southern Foodways Alliance. Today is Friday, October 12, This interview started at 9 o'clock. I m in Johnny & Beanie s in Hastings, Florida and we were talking about Johnny Barnes experience with Datil peppers and growing up here in Hastings, Florida. For the record will you tell me who you are and what you do? 00:00:29 John Barnes: My name is Johnny Barnes. I live in Hastings, Florida and I run a restaurant with my partner Beanie Masters called Johnny & Beanie s Kitchen. AH: And can you tell me when you were born? JB: I was born August 4, AH: Thank you. Were there Minorcans in this area when you were growing up? 00:00:35 00:00:37 00:00:40 00:00:45 JB: Now I grew up out here, so we had country Minorcans in Elkton and then Tocoi and you know in in this area. And you had city Minorcans in St. Augustine. When you go to Cajun and Creole foods, Cajun foods are country; Creole is more of the city okay with a little more French influence, da-da-da. Well I think that the country Minorcan food was better than the city Minorcan food because the person in the city went to the grocery store and bought a can of tomatoes where the person in the country grew their own tomatoes and grew their own Datil, you know what I mean so they had a fresher. You know and they might even kill their own chicken to make chicken pilau. 00:01:23 So growing up eating this stuff it was like a normal meal but looking back on it, it was like pretty damn wild, you know. And it was just these old country women and they they used I m getting away from I guess this is all just stuff and you can go back and AH: That s fine and we can yeah; I can 00:01:42 00:01:44 JB: But they used when I was trying to recreate for years I tried to recreate some of my grandmother s food. I could get kind of close but I couldn t quite get there. So I stopped doing it and thought about it for like a year before I went back to it. And the two things that she did that I didn't wasn t doing is first of all, every pot they had was a thick heavy pot, most of it cast iron. They had gas burners not no flat top electric stoves and stuff like that. And they also had a patience with their food. You know they were housewives, mothers, you know farm women and all this kind of stuff. And when I look back on it I don t know how in the hell they did what they did every day, but they did it you know. And at the end of the day there was still a peach pie there

3 John Barnes 3 and you know another you know and and they could just do. They could butcher hogs and make sausages and have babies and all that kind of shit. You know I mean it s like amazing and they were big strong sturdy women. 00:02:37 And but they cooked them when they were making anything with the Datil pepper, like I m going to show you some in a minute that s called a mull. When you they call it a frydown when they start doing it when they put the bacon for the salt pork and the onions and the peppers and the marjoram and thyme and salt and pepper and the Datil pepper and you fry that down. And then when you add your tomatoes, once it s done they called it a mull. And they kept a little jar of container of that in their refrigerator. It keeps forever, you know. And I got some back we keep it in our refrigerators. I just put a pan of chicken pilau in the oven you know. 00:03:11 And the I mean the longer it sits the better it gets. It s like a tomato paste. And they cooked it down for a long, long, long time to where they reduced the liquid out of the tomato to where it was almost reddish brown and you know it s like it s like a sun-dried tomato and tastes a little bit different than a regular tomato because it s been reduced down in the and it intensifies the flavor. And they cooked that shit all day you know on low and just go back and stir it once in a while until it it just got that rich depth of of pilau. 00:03:38 I remember eating pilaus that were mostly brown. They weren't even red they had cooked it so long. They had turned brown. It was brown mush. So I still am crazy about the Datil pepper in general as far as the flavor. A couple years ago at the [note: Genung s] fish camp I grew plants out there and I let some of the peppers stay on the plant long enough to turn golden. And then I would put them in these jars and let them sit with the vinegar for about six months. Now you re talking about a difference in flavor than the green because it s it s different; it s the same as taking a green bell pepper over here or a red or a yellow bell pepper. It s sweeter; it s riper, you know and that golden pepper stayed on there and it got riper. And you put it in that vinegar and it turns into this flavor that s fruity. And I make coleslaw with it; you know instead of using regular vinegar I put that vinegar in there and a little sugar and mayonnaise. And then people say did you put apples in this coleslaw? It tastes like it s got apples in it because of the ripeness and the richness of that golden pepper, you know. 00:04:41 So I was telling that Dr. Dan [Cantliffe] guy the other day who is pretty much of an expert I really wish you could get to him on the pepper and he s a little bit put out with all these people that are growing this commercial stuff and he says they re they re taking you know they re they re growing them for nurseries you know and they re not as good a pepper. You know they re they're losing the they're still a hot pepper and it still looks like a Datil pepper but he said some of it is out there that s not you know as like it used to be. 00:05:14 Now if you go up here to Elkton out in here where those old families of Sanchez and Masters and all that and Beanie is a Minorcan and they have got a pepper a couple pepper plants out there in their yard. Well that line of seeds goes way back, you know because they save at the end of the year they ll take a couple dozen peppers and a needle and thread and make a little necklace and hang it on the hook in the garage. And next year they take those seeds and

4 John Barnes 4 plant the you know their peppers. So they ve got that same line of peppers that their greatgreat-great grandfather had and they taste different. You know they taste different. They look different and they they just got that you know. And I don t know that you that the average person could tell the difference, you know. But there s a whole lot more to the Datil pepper than the heat you know. There s a fruitiness there that a habanera or a jalapeno or whatever and they have their place. The jalapeno has its place in Mexican food. You know you wouldn t want a Datil pepper in your taco I don t think. It might be good, but in general and there s just a very few people you know I mean there s still a bunch of old-timers around here that know how to do it, but commercially you know people have come up with these sauces and stuff and you know I I m kind of one of those people that likes anything, you know and I m not a picky eater. It all tastes good to me but once they go commercial with it and have to take it and have all those stabilizers and all that stuff, but it it ain't the same. It s something you make at the house, you know what I mean. 00:06:41 So that s to me that s where the Datil pepper has gone, you know is everybody is trying to cash in on it and commercialize and I understand that but they you lose, every time you do that you lose a little bit of this and you lose a little bit of that. 00:06:54 AH: Do you think that the appeal is growing for the Datil pepper outside of the St. Augustine? 00:06:56 JB: I don t know; I don t know. Everybody we catered a wedding last Sunday afternoon and we put it was a country style wedding and they had pilau and white acre peas and cornbread and all that 130 people in a barn in Flagler County. And we put on the table we set the table and we put one of these on there and we put a jar like this with a spoon in it on the table. [Gestures] And there was these people there that were from Great Britain, one table of four or five people who went nuts over this shit. I mean they just what is it; we never tasted anything like that? Can we have some, you know? You know da-da-da; you know I mean it s like so every time I find somebody that s never had it and if they like that kind of stuff they go crazy about it. It s not just another hot sauce you know. 00:07:43 So I don t know who is going who is doing this outside the of here. I m sure that s it in those specialty hot and spicy stores that sell all those hot sauces all over, you know. I mean Chris Way did really well with the Datil do-it you know. At one point in time it it went national. But I personally think that the only way you can cash in on it is if you connected it to a celebrity chef like you know like a Paula Dean or a you know one of those guys you know one of those types of international/national you know high high visibility type thing. And oh, you know if they endorse it of course it s going to cost you $1,000,000 to get their endorsement but that could take it nationally you know. 00:08:28 I d rather see it grow you know but then there s nothing wrong with regional foods either you know. You know it s like certain things; we got the best oyster. You know that we

5 John Barnes 5 know that you know. I hope nobody ever discovers our oyster or they d come and take them all. They just would; you know if people around the world could taste our oysters versus any other oyster they d say go get that. Go go you know go I ll give you $100 for those; go get them, so we we wouldn t even have a damn oyster if you know cause you know there s a difference, big, big, big difference. 00:08:59 AH: Now have you seen like a rise in popularity for Datil peppers over the last couple of years because I know? 00:09:05 JB: I have; I have and when we came when me and Beanie came in here in August you know we put an emphasis to have pilau as often as possible on the menu. I made a pot of clam chowder yesterday for that party tomorrow night, so we. And and people you know people come here for that and then people that come here just in general will who have never tried it you know we ll send them out a little sample of it and oh, you know. You know it tastes good; you know it just tastes good. So I don t I don t see a lot of it around St. Augustine. I think you could go downtown in St Augustine and take a location similar to what the Floridian s got and that you know downtown, a restaurant and call it The Minorcan, you know. And people could walk in there and they could have pilaus and they could have chowders that you know and collard greens and you know other Southern style foods. But or just have a little place where you could sell it by the bowl on the street or something you know out of a window, you know I think they would go crazy for it. AH: On a food cart or something? 00:10:06 00:10:07 JB: Yeah exactly; exactly you know. The the two guys that won that contest last Saturday are food trucks. And we didn't know anything. We were judging blind and they put some barbecue pork and some ribs in front of us with two or three different Datil sauces and barbecue sauces and it was so it was just so good you know. And I m looking for them and I m thinking what restaurant is this? You know who is doing this? And it was two guys in a truck. And they sit out on the weekends at that that new brewery out there in the industrial park, Marker 83 or something like that. AH: Mile Marker. 00:10:37 00:10:37 JB: Mile Marker, they set there on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights and sell their food you know out of their truck, you know. AH: And so you re talking about the Datil Pepper Festival now? 00:10:43

6 John Barnes 6 00:10:47 JB: Yes; yeah, you know and half the stuff there was just stuff like any other food festival. It s you know it s just stuff and I mean we were served Datil pepper cheesecake and you know and it just don t work, you know [Laughs]. It just doesn t work you know; it doesn t you know. And I mean and some things you know some every now and then somebody will mix it with something but you know our I think our most thing is the sauce. We like to put it on our hamburger or drag something through it or, you know put it in our chowders and you know and stuff like that. But some things to me, I don t it don t belong there. 00:11:20 I ll tell you who is the best batch though is Dan-O; man. AH: What makes it so special? 00:11:24 00:11:25 JB: Well Dan-O makes it special cause he s kind of special. He his is completely organic. And he even has this Mennonite guy that that makes him organic molasses or something that he buys by the gallon you know and he s just got the the measurement and the you know and the texture, and I mean everything down to it s a good recipe you know. And he won't give it up. He will not give it up. AH: Have you tried to recreate it? 00:11:52 00:11:53 JB: No; I m not good at that. Yeah; I m not good at that. And I think he grows those organic his own organic tomatoes and probably puts them through a sieve and I mean he s that kind of guy you know. But I ve never tasted one any better than him, you know; just and it s got a bite to it. You know I know you can't serve the general public heavy, heavy, heavy bite, you know but there s a market out there for people that like that bite you know. And to me it it ain't there if it ain't got a little bite to it whether it s the chowder or the pilau or anything else. If if that it s not significantly there then it s not Minorcan. It s not Datil pepper, you know to me. You know it s just not you know. 00:12:30 You know you most of the chowders that you eat Osteen s has got a good chowder but it ain't much Datil pepper flavor there cause they re serving 90-percent of the people in there are Yankees. You know they re not local people don t eat at Osteen s; you can't get in you know so we go there once a year or something. But so they can't put you know heavy Datil in it you know. And everybody has got their own you know their own take on it; you know but I think if it s not there just like we I made those judges the other day agree with me before we started judging if the Datil pepper flavor is not significantly in the dish it s disqualified to me cause it s the Datil Pepper Festival. If you can't taste the Datil then you know then the dish isn't isn't didn't meet meet what it needed to meet you know. 00:13:13

7 John Barnes 7 And and most of them were you know spicy. There was one Asian wrap there, a lettuce wrap that lit us up. You know I mean it was just wow-hot; it was just [Laughs]. I don t know how many they put in there but it was. We had we had to stop and drink milk to clean up you know somebody go get us some milk. Yeah; it burnt us up. But you know that s you know Asian spicy, Asian food. It was good. Some kind of mango lettuce wrap thing but boy, they just smeared all kind of Datil on it. It was good. And I like that; I like that when people take that challenge and you know it s a Datil Pepper Festival. If you went to a Texas Chili Cook-off you d expect it to be spicy chili. You wouldn t want no bland cause I don t like bland food anyway. You know but you know they just had the they just had the St. Ambrose Fair this past Sunday. Mary Ellen Masters who is the like the Minorcan mama of all all Minorcans around here; she cooks with it every day at home. She puts a couple of fresh Datil peppers on the table if you re having dinner in case you want to pick one up and nibble on it while you re eating. That s how they do it you know and she puts it in everything. She floats them you know pretty much in if she s cooking a pot of peas or whatever she throws a Datil pepper in there. Her family just you know that s that old. 00:14:23 I think the old-line Minorcans did that. I think they would you know they were cooking collard greens. They d throw the Datil pepper in there and you know and maybe it wasn t significantly there but it helped them collard greens have that flavor they wanted you know. So I think they used it in a lot of things that we don t use it in in their cooking cause they had it you know and they grew it. And you know the whole thing the whole lines, people got the mayonnaise(s) and mustard(s) and I think it works in most of that stuff. It s a a cranberry Datil up there that s just really good especially on a bagel with creamed cheese you know around the holiday. I mean it was I like it around the holidays cause it s pretty and it s you know and I like cranberry. But you know cranberry has got a little tart to it and then that Datil in there you know kind of a cranberry relish type thing. It works really well. 00:15:10 There s a couple of guys out here that got some pretty good barbecue sauces with Datil in them. 00:15:17 AH: So the Datil is kind of adapting to meet the needs of people today and not just Minorcans and not just? 00:15:21 JB: I think so; oh yeah, I think so, yeah and I think there s probably a whole lot more people consuming it than I know about you know. I m not I don t know about the retail thing and but there s a lot of people that got their product line which, you know, it s a significant investment to set up to have a product line, you know as far as manufacturing that line. So I don t know you know what it is but there s you know numerous people around town that have that you know I don t know where Chris Way s situation is with that Dat l Do-It, you know. I guess it s still. Male: I think he sold it. 00:15:51

8 John Barnes 8 JB: I think he sold it but is it still and up and you know? Male: I don t think so. 00:15:51 00:15:55 00:15:57 JB: Good morning. No; we just do lunch from 10:00 to 2:00 Monday through Friday. Thank you. 00:16:02 Yeah; I mean Chris probably knows more about the whole thing than anybody you know. Male: He s good to talk to. JB: Yes; he s very pleasant to talk to, yeah. AH: What is the basis of the sauce? You should talk about JB: This, the basis? 00:16:11 00:16:11 00:16:14 00:16:17 00:16:18 AH: Yeah; I mean how do you how do people I mean they have some variations but the general sauce is? 00:16:25 JB: We take a little pork fat; now you know now this particular sauce I don t know I think it s still got a little bit in there a little bit of pork fat and then onions and peppers, green bell peppers, and the and then the Datils and a little marjoram and thyme. All right? And and and a can of crushed tomatoes. 00:16:51 Then after you ve cooked all that down you add the can of crushed tomatoes and then you cook that down and then you add ketchup and then vinegar you know. Now I use Datil pepper vinegar now instead of regular vinegar for anything. I just don t even use regular vinegar. We just constantly pick up a bottle of Datil vinegar with just another layer of of flavor that you re adding and that s pretty much the sauce, you know the basic sauce recipe. Different people have different consistency brown sugar, a little brown sugar in there, or honey or molasses or you know a different type of you know but you got to get a little sweet in there and ketchup has got a little sugar in it, so. The and I I just kind of can whip that up and it ain't never exactly the same you know each time you do it. But you know if you got 10 Datil peppers in this end and 10 Datil peppers in this end, you re not going to have the same volume of heat always cause one come off of this vine and one come you know you got this one from

9 John Barnes 9 somebody else and somebody gave you some, so each pepper is you know it s hard to get it that way, you know the measurement of okay I want to put three peppers in this in this recipe, it ain't going to come out the same every time cause each pepper ain't the same hot. 00:18:00 AH: Right; how many how many Datil peppers do you guys go through on a weekly basis, say? 00:18:05 JB: Oh I don t know how to go through we probably use a couple pounds a week you know which is I don t know 30, 40, 50 peppers in this and that you know. If we re making them all I think our recipe for mull calls for 40 peppers, you know, but we re making you know a fivegallon batch so we can have it for this and you know and I like it to sit. I like anything that you do with that pepper you know make it and you put it in the container and you wrap it and put it in the fridge for a week and it just sits there you know. 00:18:34 Now some of these old women over here when they were making their mull they would cook it for a little while on the stove and then they would put it in the oven before they went to bed at night at 200-degrees and just leave it all night long and take it out the next morning. And it just kind of you know you know you were trying to get that liquid out of there, like you know you re trying to reduce that down and and you know they would cook it for that long, you know real slow and just kind of turn it into this thing and you know. AH: And you use that for pilau and for? 00:19:02 00:19:05 JB: Pilau and for chowder, yeah; pilau either either pilau or chowder or anything else. I mean you know if you wanted to you know and if you wanted to make that you go and let me get it and show it to you. When we make this much this is how we make it. And this was made AH: Now this is red and it s like a thick JB: Yeah. AH: tomato paste. JB: Yeah; it s what you want it to look like at the end. AH: So it s real chunky actually; it s not like real 00:19:38 00:19:39 00:19:40 00:19:42 00:19:44

10 John Barnes 10 00:19:46 JB: No; it s not completely pureed, no. But you can you know and you can and like I say, some of those people took it on further than that. [Tasting] Taste it. You know see what I mean; it s just a tomato paste you know basically a tomato paste and and we ll put that in. Tomorrow we got to make pilau for that party tomorrow night so that ll make about we ll use all that probably. AH: How long have you guys been here? How long has this restaurant? JB: We just opened this time since August August 1 st. AH: And how did you decide what you wanted to serve here? 00:20:46 00:20:49 00:20:54 00:20:56 JB: Well I wanted to go back to the type of food I had here before, country food, fried chicken and pork chops and all that stuff, and then when I made the deal with Beanie, he s a Minorcan; his last name is Masters. And he understands pilaus and chowders and collard greens and you know he grew up in a family of eight nine kids. And you know back in the days of when we were growing up here a lot of the men cooked. They had a little cook shack out back and they d get them a bottle of whiskey and the friends neighbors would come over or whatever and they d stay up all night long drinking whiskey and making gopher stew or something you know. 00:21:38 And I think Beanie, you know his family was like that; you know they were you know nine kids, they had to kill deer you know and so he knows the local thing. So we, you know just in our discussions it was like why not? You know why not put an emphasis on Minorcan food and somebody and then Bill Mignon was in here a few weeks ago and we had pilau and he said damn; you know that that tastes like it the way it s supposed to. And we later he calls and orders a pan for a party, you know. So I think of course I think ours is better than, you know than the typical restaurant because we will put enough flavor in there to where it tastes like those old guys old school people recognize that. 00:22:22 And we re using a fresher ingredient. Not many places you can go get fresh shrimp, St. Augustine shrimp you know. You know most of them places are always using that nasty shit. The typical South Beach Grill and they ve got all these big signs that say fresh local seafood; isn't a damn thing in there fresh or local. You know I don t know how why they think they should do that but they do it you know. 00:22:45 And it s cheaper; you know is the reason they re doing it, but that Male: You could serve it every day. If you did this for two weeks out of the year 00:22:50

11 John Barnes 11 00:22:56 JB: Exactly, exactly; but you know what? Growing up over here, we ate cabbage during cabbage season. And when cabbage was gone we ate something else, you know and then we ate the corn and my mother could cook cabbage 100 different ways because they were free. You d just go out in somebody s field and cut you a cabbage, so hell, we ate cabbage you know and then we ate potatoes and we ate okra and we ate corn and whatever seasonal food. Most people did. You know you didn't go to the grocery store when I was a kid and buy a California strawberry and I still don t want a California strawberry. First of all it s dumb; it ain't it might be red but it ain't going to have no taste cause it was picked two weeks ago. I want a strawberry from Plant City or Stark or you know that has some flavor. And we really need to get back to the regional eating. We should eat Southeastern foods only with the exception of the potato. You know there s certain times of the year that only potatoes are available from a place, but we don t need to be driving a strawberry from California to St. Augustine, so the housewife can have a pretty strawberry. It s dumb; it s expensive and it s a waste of energy, a waste of fuel. I mean it s just it drives the cost up. Well damn strawberries are $4.99 a pint or whatever. They pick them up and put them in the basket you know because they want a strawberry. 00:24:04 You know and if somebody wants a tomato, you know or a sweet potato, I don t want them in you know once you get out of the Southeast, Georgia, Mississippi, or or Tennessee or any of those with the tomatoes and sweet potatoes, they don t taste the same you know because they re old. You know, cabbage from Wisconsin has got to be old. It can't be a fresh cabbage. You know it s like going to the seafood shop and seeing Chilean sea bass for $24 a pound. It can't be fresh; it s from Chile. So it s not a fresh fish and they re selling it as fresh fish. You know I don t know how old it is but it ain't fresh cause it was caught in Chile. It can't be fresh and they re getting $24 fucking dollars a pound for it. And the people are like oh, it s the best fish I ever ate. Well people in Chile should be eating that fish and we should be eating flounders and snappers or whatever else groupers or whatever else we got. AH: So do you guys focus a lot on the local foods? 00:24:49 00:24:52 JB: Only, yes, as much as we can, you know just simply as much as we can. I like to forage; you know I like to leave here in the afternoons. If you live in Hastings you ain't got a lot to do after you get off work. You know there ain't no Sand Bar, there ain't no Napoli and none of that stuff [Laughs], so I like to ride out here and get you know out to Elkton and get some white acre peas from Bucky Sites farm or right over to San Mateo to Cowart s Meat Market and say cut me 100 pork chops or you know and stuff like that you know. And and I think we need to spend that money locally, you know. I don t need to be going to Walmart and buying pork chops or Walmart and buying any damn thing. You know we need to spend our money locally and it creates jobs and keeps our money circulated and you know it doesn t make any sense you know. 00:25:33

12 John Barnes 12 Plus the the bottom line is you re getting the fresher product, you know a better, better, much better project you know. AH: And you think people can tell a difference too? JB: Huh? 00:25:38 00:25:39 00:25:40 AH: You think people can tell if they come in and say oh field peas, I know these came from Sykes Farm versus JB: Yes. AH: going somewhere else and saying oh, these are? 00:25:46 00:25:46 00:25:48 JB: Oh absolutely; yeah absolutely. And even if you re busy and that person over there you don t know them and never seen them, I think when they taste it, you know they might not know it came from Elkton but they know it s you know it it tastes good. It s a fresher you know I don t know if they overly-analyze it, but they say damn, those those are good peas, you know cause they eat them all and they come back you know you know for the. You know so it s like whether whether you ever ever connect with them or not, but people ask me, I ve worked in a room and people are always damn, these peas are good and these squash are good and this okra is good or whatever you know. So you know it s no different than going out and catching a fresh fish and going home and cooking it versus going and buying a fish. You know even if didn't I give you a copy of that Mostly Mullet Cookbook? Male: Yes; you did. 00:26:32 00:26:34 JB: You know you need to read that book. It s a great little book. And he talks about when you catch a mullet by the hour it changes. Every hour that it s dead and out of the water it starts to change. It says you need to catch that mullet, clean that mullet, and cook that mullet. When we used to go to the beach in the old buggies and skeeters and everything they called them, mama would take a cast iron cooker with her. We would catch daddy would throw the net and catch a bunch of mullet and we d clean them right there on the tailgate of the truck and rinse them off in the saltwater and she d cook them. She d have a pot grits cooking and she d cook. We were eating them in 15 minutes. You know well, it tasted like good fish to us kids. It was dinner. You know late in the afternoon we you know we ate a big old plate of grits and fish but we didn't know how extraordinary we had it, and when you look back that s extraordinary eating.

13 John Barnes 13 00:27:20 Most people have never caught a fish and eaten it 15 minutes later but there s a difference. There s a damn difference. 00:27:27 Last couple of years over there, the at the beach, Cooper and, and Brad Mignon and them would call me and they were under the bridge and catching sheephead and they d say we ll be there about 4 o'clock with some sheephead. Well hell, I d go ahead and make a pot of grits and get the grease ready and we would eat that sheephead you know. They re they re cleaning them and their tails are flipping you know and I don t think there s a better fish in the world than sheephead. You know I just I just you know and and especially if they catch them after they had spawned, you know there s something you know going on with the you know their their bodies and stuff and they were just like rich. They taste like almost like crab or something you know that texture. Well it don t get no better than that. You know you get your belly full of fresh local you know a local thing; it s just better you know. It s just you know it s how we grew up and you grew up eating good food, you know local foods and you know all that kind of stuff, so. And I think the Datil pepper plays a role in that you know. If you know it s grown here; you know the ones we have are you know it s not like we import them from somewhere and we like that. You know but I think the bottom line with the Datil pepper is the fruit, the fruitiness that the other peppers don t have cause you can you know and I ve tried to like make this type of sauce with a different type of pepper and you wind up with some hot sauce and that s it. It don t have that man, what you d bring me? Who made it? [Interruption] Female: Calvin; Calvin made it. JB: Huh; Calvin oh what is it, deer meat? Female: Calvin what s that? Male: Dove birds. JB: Dove birds. Male: It s wild game. Female: You never know what you re coming into here. JB: Oh yes; I can. What is that? 00:28:45 00:28:46 00:28:51 00:28:51 00:28:55 00:29:00 00:29:01 00:29:08

14 John Barnes 14 Male: Dove barbecue. 00:29:12 00:29:28 JB: That s my cousin Calvin and I ain't never been able to cook dove like that. Mine always comes out tough and chewy. Get you some. But Calvin is like they have like eight kids eight kids and Calvin killed a lot of deer you know so they eat deer meat and they can cook deer meat like you know deer stews and you know they eat a lot of deer meat. AH: That s beautiful. JB: Isn't it? AH: Now would you talk a little bit about growing up here in Hastings? JB: Um Male: It s all right ain't it? JB: It works really well. You cooked that from beginning to end? Male: Sir? 00:29:57 00:29:58 00:30:01 00:30:06 00:30:06 00:30:09 00:30:12 00:30:12 JB: You killed the birds and cleaned the birds and cooked that yourself? Bessie didn't stir the pot or nothing? Male: I do it all man. JB: Okay. Male: I knew it was that good I d have brought you some more. JB: What did you say about? 00:30:19 00:30:20 00:30:20 00:30:23

15 John Barnes 15 Female: Did you get anything out of the money? Did you get any money? JB: Yes a $20 bill. Female: Okay; so it s $20 short. JB: You re $20 short, yes. Female: Buy some pumpkins while you re over there. 00:30:25 00:30:29 00:30:30 00:30:30 00:30:35 00:30:37 JB: My pumpkin if you see side of the road yeah; we re looking for pie pumpkins, you know them light colored pie pumpkins? Male: Yeah. 00:30:43 00:30:44 JB: Mama used to get them from your sister, Liba. She had a fence by her house and a-garbage they called them trash pile pumpkins. Male: That s right. 00:30:52 00:30:54 JB: And they grew out there by the trash pile cause that s where everybody threw the seeds. And they grew along her fence and they were light-colored pumpkins and she made pumpkin pies with them and they were like over the top fantastic, you know. And you you could buy a pie pumpkin now probably but it ain't it s just commercially grown. Female: It ain't the same though. 00:31:09 00:31:10 JB: It ain't the same, you know. And I called Kathleen the other day to see if she knew where any were and she said Gordy planted some but it got too wet and they didn't they grew but they didn't produce any pumpkins. Female: I d like to get some seeds 00:31:21

16 John Barnes 16 JB: But that s the only thing I m looking for. Male: I got plenty of seeds. Female: You got plenty of them seeds? Male: Yeah; I usually have three or four pumpkins every year but I didn't Female: I was going to say you usually Male: but I didn't plant any this past year. Female: he used to have them in his garden back in the back. Male: I let a lot slip by me. Female: Slipping, slipping Male: I m probably going up one day this coming. Male: Dove birds. Male: Oh my. JB: Get some white rice to go with it, you know on shrimp; this is the same Male: Yeah; that s all you need. JB: Fresh St. Augustine shrimp. Male: I m off on the shrimp, man. 00:31:23 00:31:24 00:31:24 00:31:25 00:31:29 00:31:29 00:31:30 00:31:36 00:31:39 00:31:40 00:31:47 00:31:49 00:31:50 00:31:52 00:31:54 00:31:57

17 John Barnes 17 Male: Them some nice ones; where did you catch those? JB: We bought them in St. Augustine this morning. Male: Oh really? 00:31:57 00:31:59 00:32:02 00:32:02 JB: Yeah; Beanie picked them up on his way this morning. They come off the boat yesterday. Yeah; right off the coast there at. Male: All right. JB: What did she say about Bessie made a cake? Male: Hmm? JB: I heard Shorty saying Bessie made a cake. Male: She made one for Beanie. JB: For Beanie? Male: For somebody who wanted this JB: Oh he ordered one, oh okay. Male: Something; I don t know. Female: No; it s for Beanie. Male: You say you got to get a commission out here. 00:32:12 00:32:14 00:32:17 00:32:17 00:32:20 00:32:21 00:32:22 00:32:24 00:32:27 00:32:27 00:32:32

18 John Barnes 18 JB: No; you know I d get I d get a slice of that cake is all I want. Male: All right; we ll see y'all in the morning. Female: Is he coming back? 00:32:35 00:32:37 00:32:40 00:32:40 JB: Growing up here I grew up one block from here. We lived in town. My father was a logger sawmill guy and my mama didn't cook Minorcan food. Female: Can you talk to Sue Ellen or? 00:33:01 00:33:05 JB: Sure. [Interruption-Takes Phone Call] 00:34:01 So I mean she occasionally did that type of stuff, she would, but she didn't cook the mulls and stuff like that. But you know with different cousins and different friends all over the you know all over the area you know you had dinner at somebody s house or lunch at somebody s house and their mama cooked pilau. So I was familiar with it, and there was a lady named Mabel Blunt and a lady named Pearl Browning and a man named Carl Waggle, all from Elkton farming, you know farming people. And if you got invited to their house you were you know you just knew you know that you were going to get some real. 00:34:35 Now the gopher stew thing was good too now back in those days; turtle, you know I like turtle. I haven't had any since then but it was done Minorcan style. You know it s a stew AH: Which means? 00:34:46 00:34:46 JB: Which means it was like it would be like making a stew and they d put the Datil pepper in there you know. So it had the Datil pepper flavor in a stew. If you were making beef stew or chicken stew or whatever, but they made it with turtle, chopped up pieces of turtle. It s good. [Laughs] It was like really good you know. I mean it s no different than a turtle egg pound cake. It was the best pound cake in the world. You know I mean it was just rich pound cake, you know and it was at somebody s house and you re sitting there and somebody says you want a piece of cake, you know? And you just we just didn't know. Like anything else we didn't know that it was extraordinary. And the world will never know that the turtle you can't mess with the turtle. 00:35:23 But we didn't eat on a daily basis we didn't eat Minorcan food. Now we had a jar of sauce in the refrigerator and this and that and the other. We ate just you know cabbage and potatoes and fried chicken and pork chops and you know and that type of stuff. But there was

19 John Barnes 19 enough people around that you were always exposed to it you know to the Minorcan food and you kind of knew. But they were more in Elkton, you know that that region of Elkton, Tocoi, all the Pacettis and Masters and Sanchez and all those different families up in there that most of them farmed. You know they were the country Minorcans all around that St. Ambrose Catholic Church area, all in there you know, all those people that you know they were big Minorcan families that you know held and still hold some of them the traditions of you know of you using that pepper and growing their own pepper and. 00:36:15 Some of them when they re growing the peppers, the Minorcans have a saying that the Datil pepper does not like to get its feet wet. So they ll go out there in the yard and build a mound, about a two or three-foot mound and plant that pepper plant on top of that mound, so when they water it or it rains that water goes flows through there. It doesn t sit, you know, like in a bucket or in the ground or whatever. It likes the you know and they ll have pepper plants as big as me like a tree, you know with hundreds and hundreds of peppers. They ll just have one of those in the backyard and they just you know year after year they plant another one and you know. But the the most prolific peppers I ve ever seen were in mounds you know behind somebody s house out here in the woods somewhere, you know instead of a bucket or a little plot in the yard or whatever. 00:37:03 Like you know we grow enough peppers for us but I don t know if they grew them enough to you know make the sauce and give some of the sauce away and have peppers for the whole year and a lot of them dried them. They strung up on string and I mean thread and hung them up and let them dry and they d use them different you know different ways in different type stuff. And they do that Datil dust thing now; you know they dehydrate. Some people take the peppers and dehydrate them and then they come up with this and then they pulverize it in a coffee grinder and it s it s this dust and they call it Datil dust and they sell it for like $20 for like one little ounce of it or something. And I ve never been able to work with it because I don t I like the flavor of the fresh pepper. You know I want this pepper. 00:37:46 Now when we every couple of months we ll take these peppers out of here and put some fresh peppers in but we ll save those peppers cause they ve been marinating in vinegar you know and we ll chop them up and put them in that mull or you know you wouldn t dare throw them away. But so the dust thing, for somebody that wants a pinch of something in their stew, or I don t know; I ve just never been able to you know I haven't done enough with it to make it work. You know so I don t know a whole lot about it. 00:38:11 AH: When did you start using Datil peppers in your own cooking? You said you were exposed to it as a kid and stuff; when did you start using it yourself? 00:38:19 JB: You know I didn't use it when I was out West. I ve done it off and on if I was having people over for dinner and I was going to make a pot of pilau. I ve always had Datil peppers in the freezer. You know I can't ever remember living here and not having having a few peppers in

20 John Barnes 20 the thing. And I like rice, so I like pilau a lot and I like clam chowder a lot. So I ve always made clam chowder, you know the local you know the Minorcan clam chowder. And the recipe I use is a guy by the name of Skeet Masters and it s it s a very, very basic recipe. So it s got mull and some potatoes and clams and that s it. And and clam juice, you know I don t put any you know when you when you re cooking anything Minorcan if you re making pilau or clam chowder you never put water, you know. You got to add whatever liquid you re using for your rice has to be flavored; it has to be chicken stock or clam juice or something cause if you put water in it, it ll just dilute that whole flavor down to weak tasting. You know where if you put a chicken stock or a clam juice in your chowder or whatever. So I ve always made that chowder just for fun, you know. 00:39:28 And we had an oyster roast over here, you know growing up and they had things out there at the fair grounds and the Shriner Clubs and all that kind of stuff were always having Cracker Days and you know different things like that. So the foods along the way, all those things were influenced. You know they d have a pot of clam chowder and selling clam chowder for $1 a bowl or whatever, you know so you d get to eat clam chowder. I liked it; you know I ve always I like spicy food you know. But you know now that I m you know here with the Datil pepper you know it s you enjoy it ever more if you just got I got a freezer full you know. So I m afraid I m always afraid I m not going to be able to you know get some. 00:40:05 And people come to you, you know can I you got any extra peppers. You give them a dozen. I mean a dozen peppers is a lot of peppers to somebody if they only use one once in a while you know. But we don t I don t like to just chop them and put them in something. I like to put them in the Cuisinart food processor with a little bit of liquid like vinegar or whatever and pulverize them to where they re you know they re just gone you know. And then I think that infuses that flavor you know into it without you getting a bite of or a piece. 00:40:35 Now some of the stuff last Saturday had little chunks of like the cheesecake, little speck here and a speck there you know where you know one bite off the cheesecake had no flavor and another bite had a little hot flavor, so it wasn t infused into the you know into the product very well. 00:40:49 AH: Is there someone in this area who is really well known for the way they use Datil peppers? 00:40:53 JB: Now Mary Ellen knows that shit. I mean she s pretty radical about it. You could probably get some really good stuff from her, you know. And she ll tell you, you know and I know her; I ve known her all my life and she s going to tell you that everybody else ain't doing the shit right and she is. And and she s and she s kind of kind of right you know what I mean. It s hard to it s hard to deny her but she s not going to make it if it ain't blazing with Datil. You know she s just not going to make a mild chowder. 00:41:23

21 John Barnes 21 AH: She s my kind of lady. 00:41:25 JB: Her mild chowder will still burn your ass up. You know cause she s going and what she does that a lot of people don t do. What is that? [Interruption] Mary Ellen is one of these people that uses the Datil pepper in layers like some people will put garlic in their start of the stir-fry and then halfway through it they ll add another pinch and then at the end add another pinch, so you get different levels of the same flavor. She does that with Datil, okay; she you know she does it a lot. And it and if she makes a pot of clam chowder, after it s completely done she ll go over there and chop up three or four more Datils and put them in at the end, you know, fresh. 00:42:10 Her kids and grandkids will do that; they ll you know they ll have a little little container of ground Datil or whatever and they ll take when they get a bowl of chowder they ll put a pinch in there just to give it that you know like we would squeeze a lemon in something at the end, you know to give it that fresh bite, you know flavor of lemon, you know they ll do that with that Datil. And I don t know of anybody that s any better at it than Mary Ellen cause her grandmother was good and her mother was good, you know at that so she just inherited it. You know and her daughter was in here the other day eating pilau and she said pretty pretty good pilau. You know I ain't going to say it s a fantastic pilau pretty good pilau you know cause she s been eating her mama s pilau all those years you know. AH: Yeah. 00:42:47 00:42:49 JB: But I wouldn t get into a I ll take this back; do get into a conversation with her about the Minorcans and the pepper and because she ll tell you David Nolan is full of shit you know. Unless she s changed her tune they don t want to hear that kind of stuff. And they still own that pepper; you know it s their pepper. They brought it to St. Augustine, but but they don t want to you know they want to connect it all the way back and this and that and the other. And and this is no evidence of that you know so if there s no evidence it s probably not true. You need a little evidence that you know on the Isle of Minorca they don t eat hot peppers. There s no evidence it came from those that food and stuff like that. He thinks that it came out of the islands, you know with the spice trades and the you know and they were moving the Minorcans over here as indentured servants and you know and somehow in Cuba or whatever you know. 00:43:35 But as far as I m concerned even though they didn't bring the pepper from the Isle of Minorca they still owned that pepper. They brought it to St. Augustine, you know, is the way I see it. So to me the pepper and they re and they re the culture that has used it all these years. AH: Right. 00:43:51 00:43:51

22 John Barnes 22 JB: You know. 00:43:53 AH: Well I know you re busy. I don t have any other questions. If you want to add anything that we didn't talk about? JB: I want to eat some of that. AH: Yeah; thanks very much. [End John Barnes] 00:43:58 00:44:01 00:44:02